Interviewer: Good day everybody. Yes, it’s a special day. Our icon, our mentor, someone we revere so much is 70. That’s Professor Pat Utomi,. But you know a man of so many places, a man of so many academic achievements. We need to talk to him. I mean he loves Nigeria passionately. He’s highly patriotic. I don’t think that’s in dispute. But at 70, we need to—I’m sure he has a lot to reminisce about. He has a lot of experience. I’m one of the people that believe evidently that Nigeria still needs him. I’m sure you’ve all heard him say anybody that is 70 should not be part of anything politically. I disagree with that. I think he is still a reservoir of a lot of knowledge. So today the birthday boy is with us. Prof, welcome to Atlanta Discourse channel.

Prof. Utomi: Thank you so much. I’m glad to be able to join again.

Interviewer: Fantastic. How do you feel to be 70? What’s the difference? I mean what’s the feeling like?

Prof. Utomi: Well, I kind of feel lucky. Okay, I mean extremely lucky. I mean we can take these things for granted. But you know I wrote something recently and I said I titled it “Fuelled by Grace.” It’s just pure grace of God which we sometimes take for granted that enable us travel as far as we do. So I feel very fortunate and thankful, really truly grateful for the opportunity to be around at this time and this age. And my hope is that I can be a worthy counselor to another generation to probably avoid the mistakes that we made in our time. So this is really what the moment is like for me.

Interviewer: Oh, fantastic. I know you’re very passionate about Nigeria and I mean it’s common knowledge that the country is not where it should be, you know. But you are in a good position to be asked this question, you know, and I know you’ve said you’ve advised the political class a lot. You’ve said so much. But what do you think is the missing link? Why are we still getting it wrong more than 60 years after independence? We just keep going around in circles and what’s missing?

Prof. Utomi: Well, we didn’t groom leadership succession. What happened to us unfortunately is that we had a first generation of leaders who were really selfless and wanted to build for different reasons. Motives were different. Nationality groups were competing with one another about who will most bring progress to their own group. All of those had their positives. It led to the most rapid industrialization you know between 1957, 1960. And then of course, like I’ve said often, the unfortunate alchemy of soldiers and oil mixing set off this prebendal culture.

Now before we knew it, a certain kind of narcissism, this self-love, overtook the political class. And you know patriotism—I mean they will not accept that they’re not patriots—patriotism kind of slipped a little bit. Self dominated the way many of them act. For me the greatest example of this is for the country to be lying prostrate and have the National Assembly spend money the way it does spend money. It just does not make sense. But they don’t see it that way. They see it as look, this is a scramble and they have gotten to where they should scramble up as much as they can grab.

But it’s sad, very very sad. And the effect is what we see in terms of the limited progress in Nigeria. However, it’s redeemable. I think that we—again I’d like to return to the mode that Mahathir Mohamad was in when they started the new economic policy that led to eventually Vision 2020, when he invited everybody to be inside the house pissing out rather than have some people outside the house pissing in.

I do think that these lots are not anti-patriotic. They just don’t know enough to do the right thing. Yes, they may have an idea that they are not doing the best thing. But the narcissism has so blinded them that they think, hey, what are these guys talking about? It’s my turn. Let me take care of myself. But it’s so shortsighted. You know, delayed gratification is very central to effectiveness. And not being able to train a generation of people who understand delayed gratification has really been central to Nigeria’s underperformance.

Interviewer: Wow. You are someone that’s been everywhere in Nigeria. I’m talking education, where you lived, you know. You’re as pan-Nigerian as it can be from Ibadan to Kano to—you’ve been everywhere. And I recall you saying once that you always feel safe when you were growing up in all those places, you know. I mean you have friends in every state of the country. You are widely traveled. I’m sure you have even been to all the 36 states, you know, for education now.

Prof. Utomi: I definitely have.

Interviewer: Yes sir. So right now there’s a lot of divide. Ethnic—we’re ethnically divided, religiously divided. I mean, what changed? You know, it seems to be similar to the earlier question, but I’m talking tribe and ethnic, ethnic and religious based. Yeah. What changed? Why is it—I have friends that went to federal government college in my day and they used to go by road, sometimes train and fly, but now it’s almost a scary thing for a child to even go and serve in Zamfara State. So what—where—what do you think? Where did we get that wrong also? Is it also based on the elites or we had it coming?

Prof. Utomi: Unfortunately for us, I think that the effect of oil was more damaging than we seem to realize. One of the things that oil did is as the non-tradable goods sector—like construction—with plenty of money in the pocket of the federal government to pay the workers of this world. As that sector took off and trade policy could not adjust properly, we killed off where people made natural money from hard work. The cocoa messenger in NNPC where he was paid more than he could get from selling his cocoa. So the next oil price swing, he’s laid off by the construction company who’s not getting paid by the federal government, getting into unemployment. And he’s used to a kind of so-called Naija life. Now he has no job. And so he’s looking for ways to make up. And then the general culture encourages more criminality, more entitlement and stuff like that. And things people used to consider abomination became something that they took for granted. That’s, we can live with it.

You know, I tell the story of—I had the great privilege of knowing Chief F.H.M. Marinho who was the first group managing director of NNPC. And Chief Marinho and I, we used to go to the same church in Lagos. And when he decided to write his memoirs, one Sunday he said to me, “I’d like to come by your house.” And I was thinking, “Ah, me, a small boy like me, you come to my house.” Before I knew what was happening, he was at my gate. And he wanted me to read his manuscripts for his memoirs and provide some counsel. I thought okay, I’m honored. I got the manuscript. One of the things that struck me was the importance of his oriki, you know. I mean those things meant something to the way you raised a child. You know. But think of young men out there. They don’t even care or think about these things.

And so those values, as they became eroded, as economic challenges grew, all kinds of things began to be part of the environment and so insecurity increased. And the politics that came after 1999—you know we didn’t get the right kind of people into the political space. In the main, there were a few of them but in the main it wasn’t those that you hoped would be the political class that went in. So these new guys who didn’t have the right values, didn’t understand what politics was about—a service. Everything became money. Money, the worship of money crippled Nigeria.

And I tell people that I don’t have any regard for people who have money. I have regard for people who I can see what they did, how they made impact, how they created wealth and so on, number of people they employ and stuff like that. I respect that, not the amount of money in their bank account. So anyhow, many people began to build huge personal treasuries from just pillaging the state. And state capture became what Nigeria was known for. And it is not surprising therefore that you have all these social challenges associated with easy money and you know, entitlement mentality, you know, get rich quick and stuff like that.

Interviewer: So is it fair to say the elites are sowing the embers of discord amongst all religion and ethnic group in Nigeria today to suit—

Prof. Utomi: No, I’m quite clear in my head that these things—I don’t want to take advantage of an emotional evil. So somebody wants to run for office. I give an example. I mean I always find ethnicity a very silly thing for whatever reason. Growing up I was educated to think of the universal dignity of the human person. It is impossible for me mentally to think of somebody you know as different from me because he speaks a different language. You know, because I—first of all my first language when I was a kid was Hausa. Then I realized—then I even lost, nearly lost speaking it. And then you know I was living in Kano when the uprising was taking place. And as far as I was concerned it was, you know, oh man.

You know, and then I see somebody running for public office and he says to people that ah, the problem is all these demons from this part of the country or that part of the country. And I’m wondering what they’re talking about because I grew up seeing all these people in the north, in the west, in the east as just guys, my friends, you know. But when a politician is desperate to get public office that he does not deserve enough, then he begins to look for what can make people consider him even though he’s not worthy of the position. They look for things that will divide people.

I gave an example in something I wrote. I said let’s take the Igbo community. There are people in the southeast who say ah, people from the Midwest who are Igbo speaking people from Delta, they’re Anioma people, ah they’re not proper Igbo people. There are people in Delta who say ah, we’re not Igbos and all that kind of stuff. And I said if somebody in Enugu was running against somebody from Ibusa and knows that the person is by far a better candidate, he then begins to think this thing is done to Igbos, not to the Igbos. It suddenly becomes Igbos, not the Igbos anymore. Oh wow. And then he will start saying no, these people are not authentic. I say but what is authenticity about ethnicity?

Let me give you an example. So you say the person from Ibusa whose ancestry is from Issele-Uku in what is Imo state, combined with people from who were their next door neighbors across the Niger and they all then mixed to be one people and they are somehow less authentic Igbos because they’re on the other side of the Niger. And the people in Obosi, major part of whose ancestors just came down to Niger from Igala, now claiming to be more authentically Igbo. You just see the silliness of that, you know. But they will say it, they will do it because they’re looking for something that will give them advantage in that competition for the position that they are not qualified for or they’re not as good as that person from—

I’ve said this about Igbos and Yorubas, you know, because Igbos and Yorubas are cousins. In fact, I tell people if you look at the work that Jared Diamond did from out of Columbia University, if you look at migration and stages when language was developing, if you look at things like body parts, first things language began to identify, you will see that we’re describing body parts in Hebrew and in Yoruba is very similar. Eye is imi, nose is imu and so on and so forth. And so you see that these things are human inventions to divide people. Because if you authentically look at relationships, you’ll find that these—and this is the point that Reverend Vlad Thompson makes.

In fact, I remember a meeting which he called and requested that I host and I hosted. He had the top Yoruba elite, top elite in Lagos. Presidents, sorry, Professor Akinyemi, all of them, they were all here in this very living room I’m speaking to you from. And he told the story, Vlad Thompson, of telling somebody about his work and what he was trying to do to bring the Igbos and Yorubas to understand you know the importance of their working together. And the guy goes, “Igbo? Ah ah!” He said, he left. Continue conversation about 10 minutes later, he said to him, “How’s your wife?” And he goes, “She’s fine.” The guy who was making all these noises definitely married to an Igbo person.

Interviewer: Oh God. Oh God.

Prof. Utomi: So it just shows you the silliness of the whole thing.

Interviewer: Oh wow. Oh wow.

Prof. Utomi: But politicians like to exploit such things. Not only Nigeria, sadly what we see in the United States today. And that’s why the work that people like Joshua Greene do at the Center for Moral Congregation at Harvard is of huge interest to me. You know, how do people get to this we and them, emotion, reason and the gap between us and them.

Interviewer: Fantastic. Now let me ask you this sir. You have always said that for any third world country to get its act together, you know, the diaspora contingent of that country has a strategic role to play. You’ve—I’ve heard you even in my interview with you, you’ve said India is a fantastic parameter and yardstick, you know. And even the Israelis are doing, helping their countries. Now, I say Israel is big like that, you know. Now, in the case of Nigeria, the world order is changing. It’s—that’s a given, you know. The Canadians are not hiding it, the Europeans are not hiding it, the Australians are not hiding it, you know. And that India we’re always talking about now seems to be a mecca of some sort for people that are looking for new alliances now. Yes. So, I want you to talk to the Nigerian diaspora. What do you expect from them going forward if you believe they have such a very critical role to play? Should everybody start coming back home? Should we reorganize ourselves and work together? What is your clarion call?

Prof. Utomi: Well, I don’t think we should all start coming home. But the strategic locations that we have will facilitate the rise of the country if we deploy the advantages that we have where we are. As I’ve said, you know, if you look at Japan’s rise, you know, after the Meiji Restoration, the role of the Japanese diaspora especially in Germany to stimulate development of interest in technology, it’s clear. India rising, China rising, all these profited from their diaspora.

Now what it is, is that the diaspora are in a place where they see the new developments, they become part of it. They have friends who they can work with to rebuild. And those friends can become partners in the leap forward that must take place, that has to take place for progress to happen.

Interviewer: All right. I like that. So at 70, you look back at your experience, your life and all that. What do you think if you had another opportunity, you would do very differently?

Prof. Utomi: Well, you know, the way I often answer that question is that if I had the opportunity, I’ll do everything differently because hindsight is 20/20. However, the values that I have tried to live are you know essentially not variable. As I have told people, a good part of what I have done in terms of public life is drawn from, first and foremost, a base of the dignity of the human person—that everybody created by God is infinitely invested with the dignity of its creator. And so when you treat people right, you actually are lifting up the creator that is in them.

So you move from that. I have some basic things like Mahatma Gandhi’s seven deadly social sins that have been very important for me. Politics without principles is a waste of time. Wealth without work is truly a sin. And that’s why I have contempt for many of these people who have buried a lot of money but I can’t see how they made the money. Religion without sacrifice—I mean religion is about sacrifice. You know, science without morality—all of these are things that I consider fundamental to human nature for civilized living together.

I have had the good fortune also of studying the social doctrine of the Catholic Church, looking at the encyclicals that began from Leo the 13th and we now have Leo the 14th. Leo the 13th through the encyclical during the industrial revolution, Rerum Novarum. I’ve actually had the privilege of being referred to as the new Amos, the prophet of social justice. But I don’t think of myself in terms of a prophet and stuff like that. I just think of myself as a citizen, a citizen really, honestly committed to engaging in public conversation for a path that is just, fair to all, advances the common good of all. This is central to my life’s journey.

There are many good people out there but they don’t have the moral courage to stand by that which they deeply believe in. But I made the decision early that even if it hurts, I will stand by what is truthful. And it has hurt many times. But one of the things I’ve learned is that God is extremely faithful. You know, I have never really had significant lack. I may not have any excess but I’ve never really had significant lack. So I am lucky and I’ve had energy. And so it’s been easy for me, for example, to avoid corruption in Nigeria by simply functioning from Nigeria on three different continents. But then I do a little consulting in Europe. I do a little teaching in the US while living in Nigeria. I can pay my children’s school fees. So, you know, somebody refusing to give me a contract will not make a difference to my quality of life, especially since I’m not—you know, I live detachment. I’m not looking for my Mercedes to be bigger than that of my neighbor.

And I have found repeatedly in my life—I told a story recently of the early days of GSM or something. Economic summit, we were in the bus of some very serious big men and one of them had a full gold cell phone. And I had one of those MTN toy phones, you know. And when the person was using it, people were ogling at his phone and commenting. I brought out my own phone and everybody started laughing. And I said to them, well he makes a call, I make a call. I hear the person, person hears me. That’s all I need.

Interviewer: Oh God. Anyway, okay. I have just one more question for you and it’s a three-in-one but I’ll put it in a way that won’t be too elongated. You know, Nigeria has had a lot of presidents from time, from independence. A lot of them—to some of them you are frenemies like you always say. To some you have interacted with almost all of them on a very personal basis. Yeah. So now my question to you, what makes it three-in-one is: number one, who amongst all of them is your favorite? Maybe somebody you feel Nigeria has not given enough respect or who you think had good programs. Who’s your favorite? That’s one. Two, those they call owners of Nigeria, whether the military apparatchiks, the old guards, you know, the top guys, you know, class of 66—

Prof. Utomi: Yeah, class of 66 they call them, you know.

Interviewer: The middle belt guys, the generals and all that. What advice will you give them right now before the cookie crumbles that, okay guys, you can still do this for the country? And the third one, the final one, is what advice do you have for President Tinubu? You know, I mean somebody that you know very well also, you know. So what will you advise him? That’ll be your last question sir.

Prof. Utomi: Okay. Well, first of all, in terms of my favorite president, there are talents spread out amongst the different people who have held that position. And in different areas they have strengths and then they have weaknesses. I particularly like to think of Yar’Adua. And they say had he been well, maybe Nigeria’s fortunes could have been different. He was very open. He had a listening ear and he had a sense for justice and fairness. He had his shortcomings but the biggest problem was he was not well.

I do think that in terms of really being wise, you know, President Obasanjo is a remarkable person, very very clever. He made mistakes because, you know, he had his push for a certain place in history that distracted him. I think had he not been so distracted by wanting to win the Nobel Prize around 1999, being the next Mandela and all of that, he could have done a lot more. But he was really distracted in that sense and was out of the country a great deal trying to fix other countries and all of that. But he’s a very very wise person and really cares for Nigeria. So in that sense he’s special.

Babangida was a very shrewd player. There’s a book that’s about to come out this year in which I wrote a chapter on Babangida and looked at, you know, his place, his play in Nigerian history. So all of these people have you know their strengths and some weaknesses obviously.

The one that I really am completely negative on is Muhammadu Buhari. He should never, never have aspired to lead. He doesn’t have it for leadership and the effect on Nigeria can be seen very clearly.

As for the incumbent, the incumbent should respect biology. His time has passed. He did well when he was in his prime. Obviously had his shortcomings. But right now the greatest gift he can give Nigeria is to step away from the presidency. Wow. That is the greatest gift he can give Nigeria.

Interviewer: Wow. Thank you, Prof. Well said. You know, you’re always going for the jugular. Say it as it is all the time. We appreciate you. Happy birthday to you. I know for you, life begins at 70. We won’t allow you rest and we will not allow you going to retirement. You can take that from me. Yeah. Nigeria needs you. You’ve written so much. You’ve said so much and I’ve always told people that you’re one person that almost everything you said will happen if we don’t do this or that has come to pass, you know. So now that push has come to shove, now you know I think we need to consult you more. So once again I wish you a happy 70th birthday, wish you long life, and to your wonderful family. Thank you for your time, your leadership and mentorship always. God bless you sir. Take care. Bye.

Prof. Utomi: Bless you richly. Thank you.